Wow, just ... wow.

[genlisae]

First I have a confession.

I totally did not get the concept of why anyone, ever, would want to watch someone else play sims. This seriously confused the hell out of me. I could not have thought of anything more pointless, boring or such a complete waste of time if you had paid me to do it.

But (you knew there was a but in here) because I really do try to not outright judge things I have never experienced first hand (yes, I fail at that sometimes. I admit it. I am human and sometimes, OMGASP! wrong.) when I saw holleyb76's announcement of an upcoming (actually in progress) livestream I thought "What the hell, at least then I will know", and off I went to see what was going on.

I learned two things, The first, I have gotten way more reclusive than I thought I had. No, seriously, I know it doesn't seem like it, but I have. Watching the chat scrolling by on the side I actually had a moment of terror when I thought about joining in. Cold, sweaty palms and everything. This is a bad thing. Sure, I seem fine here, I know here, this is familiar. Kind of like I know for absolute certain I could go stand in front of a room full of strangers and give a presentation. Depending on the topic I could even do it cold with minimal to no prep. Yet when faced with having to directly interact with those same people ... just thinking about it is making breathing difficult.

If anyone else who was there tonight noticed I was really quiet, now you know why. Bear with me in future okay?

The second, and far more relevant to the topic at hand here, it was actually interesting. I can't say it was fun, probably in large part due to the issues mentioned in my first point, but it was interesting. I was surprised and I think I will be stopping by to watch another livestream next time one pops up on my f-list and I can make it.

So, after that eye opener and still a little shaken I did something really stupid. Dumb. Completely disregarding any semblance of intelligence I like to think I have. I went to read this weeks simsecrets ...

... Then I read the comments.

I know! I know! I said I was no longer going to read the comments because of the ability to feel my IQ actively dropping. I read them anyway. I more or less glazed over a certain topic that was dredged up from the depths in which it should have remained because I still had enough sense to know that was not going to go anywhere pretty. I did read a fair amount on the whole "sharing issue" which only seems to have made the prospect of interacting with people more terrifying (I am still trying to work out why) and then I stumbled into the discussion on posting other's work to tumblr (or anywhere really) with attribution.

And I momentarily fell into a dark abyss of anger and mistrust which almost had me pulling everything from all of my various accounts at different places (including deleting LJ), going around to various internet archives and submitting requests to have my content purged and falling off the internet for good.

Bit of an extreme reaction, yes? Yes.

Let me present you with a scenario: You are a design student at a modestly attended community college that just happens to have a reputation for churning out industry leaders in advertising and design. You are a single mother in a city you have only been living in since a few weeks before you started school and have been busting your ass for what seems like ever. Haven't had more than 2 hours sleep in a 24 hour period in over 6 months and your child, who has just turned 4, doesn't want to play with you anymore like other children her age do. No. Instead she sits down to talk with you about triadic schemes, bezier curves and the newest Pantone catalog.

You have been tasked (90% of your grade depends on it) with conceiving, proposing and producing a comprehensive advertising campaign, the pinnacle of which is to be a 30 second commercial suitable for airing on prime time television meeting all major network standards. I want to make this perfectly clear, this was not a group project. Talent may be brought in to appear in the ad slice, but everything else has to be done by you. Alone. You have, from start to finished campaign, 14 days to complete the assignment and have all of it uploaded to the FTP server for marking.

You succeed spectacularly, one of the best in the class, in fact, one of the best the school has ever seen. You pat yourself on the back and carry on. Good job, you have a future AND a very valuable item to include in your portfolio.

Then, on a random weekend, one of the school alumni who now works for THE advertising agency in the area stops by. Not an unusual occurrence, the school offers lifetime upgrading. They shoot the shit with the instructors for a bit, maybe arrange to take a refresher class and casually say "So, got any promising new prospects?" And the instructors, proud of their students, show them the work of the current best-of-the-best.

And then, a little more than a month later, your project is playing in a premium time slot during the Stanley cup play-offs. And the director is calling you into his office because he has heard from other students that, "Hey, that new <blank> ad looks JUST like the one so-and-so did!" and you are warned that you are on probation and if there is any further evidence of you "ripping off" the work of "real professionals" you will be expelled and subject to prosecution.

You would think you would be angry, wouldn't you?

You're not. There is a momentary flash of some emotion you can't even begin to describe and then just numb. Numb to the point of not being aware of a single thing that happens over the next week. Fortunately, if you are lucky, your instructors upon hearing what happened step up and say "No, she did it first, if anything was stolen from anyone it was from her." And somewhere in there you seem to remember the director apologizing for wrongly accusing you ... moments before he warns you to just let it go because the ad in question was produced by THE firm of the industry and it would not be good for your future if you, an unknown, made them look anything less than completely professional ... and original.

Eventually anger does set in along with a deep and lingering sense of betrayal, but you move on, work out that more than anything else the lifestyle of this industry is not for you and especially not for your child and off you go to try your hand at being an artist with some interesting and valuable experience under your belt and all is good, but you are a lot more careful about who and what gets access to your work.

Until the day a fellow artist approaches you and says "Hey? When did you start selling your work on products on ebay and why didn't you tell me?"

At that point your confidence in people is irreparably shot to hell and you will NEVER trust another person with your work ever again. You also learn that while the DMCA sounds really good and wonderful and like it is really helpful, in reality it may be easier to build a sugar cube castle to the moon; an endeavor which you would easily have time to complete before seeing any result from going through the process of trying to stop the unauthorized use of your work, never mind getting compensation.

Arguably, sim-images can not really be called "your work". Yes, they are yours, you made up the sim and created the setting and angled the camera just so and most simmers have a style that is uniquely their own and says "I took this picture!", but the basic fact remains that the game, the base from which you started for that picture, belongs to EA. I am not suggesting that there is isn't just as much creativity and feeling and, yes, even originality put into many sim images as would go into original art or photography. It is fan art. Plain and simple. But, just as if you went and drew a picture of the characters from your favourite work of fiction in another medium, that image is yours in the respect that you created based on an idea owned by someone else, and I am betting if you did go draw a piece of fan art, shared it and then found someone else was claiming they drew it, you would be pretty pissed.

I do realize, in the case in question on simsecret, the images are not claimed by the person posting them and they have given attribution to the creator, however for those of us who have been burned in the ways I just described for you, it is really hard to make that distinction. It is a knee jerk reaction.

What, for most I have talked to and certainly for me, would offset this reaction? Ask. A simple "Hey, I would like to share your pic here, is that okay?" The answer, for most, is usually a resounding "YES!". You might even find that the creator has already set up a way to make sharing much easier for you, as in the case of tumblr (and what seems to have been at the heart of the issue) a simple mouse click to reblog the image and another to follow the creator's blog. Two good things for the price of one! You get to share AND have found someone else to follow gaining access to everything else they will share in future.

Even a quick note, "I shared your pic here, just wanted to let you know." Immediately takes us (me) out of the vulnerable mindset and into "*Squeee!* Someone else likes my shit!" We don't make these things, usually, just to stare at them. We want others to see them. Art, in any form is best when viewed.

Yes, I know there are those who will say "But all art should be free! Creation is a gift!" Creation is a gift, absolutely, but then so is the ability to landscape. There is an art to selecting plants, maintaining them and even mowing lawns. Some people, for whatever reason, are not capable of creating "art" just as some, no matter how they try, will only ever kill their grass instead of having the rich, lush lawn they desire. You are of course free to create art and freely share it if you wish, just as I am free to mow my neighbours lawn as a gesture of kindness; however I do not tell you that you can not make a living as a landscaper, don't tell me I can't make a living as an artist.

One more thing before I get off my soapbox. I am not at all implying that the simmer called into question in that one particular secret was in any way acting maliciously. In fact I believe it was exactly the opposite. I am just explaining the hows and offering an example of the why some would feel the way the secret maker does since I noticed a few comments who could not understand why sharing would ever be an issue for anyone.

Comments

[bolob.livejournal.com]

I see the secret you were talking about - I haven't been on simsecret in over a month - that place just irritates the hell out of me because people just take things to heart too much when they shouldn't be saying anything when they're called out on things plain and simple and yet they try to come back with some logic that just sounds like even more bullshit!

That's the thing about tumblr - you can put almost anything on it, but I certainly don't go around to other people creation pages and post pics like that. I reblog or I like. That person should've really known better and I'm sure they probably didn't have a good reasoning as to why they did it. It's just like with fanfic stealing that I hear about from time to time.

[genlisae.livejournal.com]

I honestly, do not think there was any malicious intent on the part of the pic sharer. I am not sure it occurred to them that it would be an issue for some, but then it doesn't occur to most people that an image they find on a Google search can't just be copied and used in their myspace (or LJ or whatever) layout either.

Arguing that they should have known better, I don't know, obviously they didn't. It is a non-issue for a lot of people, just as it is a serious issue for a lot. I suppose it depends on personal experience, both on the part of the person sharing and those doing the sharing.

[aledstrange.livejournal.com]

Advertising is a very hard industry. That story you told about someone stealing your idea, we have experienced in one way or another too many times in the years we have been working doing commercials. More than once we have even been approached by potential clients looking for original ideas or solutions to problems (for post), just to get them rejected and then find out they actually used our ideas with others... nice! My hubby always say agencies (especially big ones) are like a mafia, you gotta be very careful with them :/

As for simsecrets and tumblr, I'm liking tumblr in general, tho it's very different and I personaly don't use to "communicate" much with anyone (as in chat/comment, like in LJ), but love seeing people pictures and it's very good to share pictures easy and fast too, imo, but I agree with the secret itself. I don't get why people post other people's images from other sites there. If they weren't posted in tumblr in the first place, they shouldn't end up on it, imo.

[genlisae.livejournal.com]

*nod* I did work in the industry for a very short time which only served to confirm what I had already expected. It was not for me and the 3AM phone calls from printers because there was an issue with the run was not very good for my daughter either. More than just being hard the amount of time demanded was just ... yeah. I like my child I kind of want to see her sometimes! lol

I am not even remotely surprised potential clients would do that. Now in some cases it could be a matter of they thought about it later and decided it really was a good idea at which point you would think they would come back to you and say "hey, I changed my mind". That would make sense .... and making sense would be waaaay too easy! From the client standpoint, I really don't think the majority of them do it on purpose and I know they are surprised to find out we take our ideas very seriously. "It's just an idea, a concept!" Yes, and that idea takes a lot of time and effort to think up! It is also potentially worth a lot of money.

Have you considered having them sign a preliminary contract or Non-disclosure agreement? I had all potential clients sign an agreement stating any original ideas, outlines, potential campaigns, etc belonged solely to me until such time as they became a full, paying client and I would retain ownership of said until they had paid their invoice, in full. They also did not get to see anything until they paid a small, non refundable, retainer (later deducted from anything else they would pay).

Many of them were surprised until I explained that much like the oil industry runs on oil, we run on ideas. The final product is ads that run in magazines or on television, just like for much of the oil industry the final product is gasoline. The oil industry is not going to just hand you a barrel of crude to "see what you think of it", I am not going to just hand them my ideas. Sure, like any contract it may or may not stand up in court, (having a lawyer draft it certainly helps there!) but it does give you a small measure of protection and ensures you at least see some compensation for your work.

I admire your dedication in sticking with the business. I would have gone well crazy by now! lol

I have had a few of my images which I did not post to tumblr end up on tumblr. In all cases though, it was NOT an issue because those who posted them asked. It really isn't hard to ask!

[radioredrafts.livejournal.com]

I can certainly see why you're upset. It's only natural to want to have due credit for what you've done, which is why I won't post a picture, or anything from anywhere else, anywhere, without also posting a link to where I got it. I feel really guilty otherwise. This is also why I was so against Napster doing what they were back around 2000. Intellectual property rights are important, and not giving creative people due credit and/or profiting off another person's creation is just stealing regardless of what "free art" advocates say or how they try to spin it.

[genlisae.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on all points. The counter point (and one which I raised myself) has been made that in this instance there is no ownership to claim because the legal rights belong to a third party and that the post in question clearly gave credit and attribution to the originator of the image. I can see both sides here based on experiences where there was a legal claim and was offering up that past experience as one possible reason why some might feel negatively about sharing in the context of the sims.

Was something like this the actual reason for the objection? I have no idea and will even acknowledge that it probably (based on past experience with the sims community in general) was not the case. But to speculate that any further would make it plainly clear that I, despite rumours to the contrary, am not a 'nice person'. :)

[radioredrafts.livejournal.com]

Well, not necessarily about the sims themselves, though you do deserve credit for what you did. I was actually referring to your story about the advertising campaign, and may have lost track of the point along the way. Intellectual property theft has been one of my pet peeves for the longest time now. I'm not talking about doing things like the sims or fanfiction or anything like that.

Suddenly I feel like we're two fingertips just missing each other, but I'm pretty sure I agree with your point of view.

[genlisae.livejournal.com]

I am pretty sure we are in agreement on most points (if not all). Just clarifying, because well ... yeah, clarification is necessary to avoid any misunderstanding by anyone else who may read this.

[simtopi]

First, I'm sorry I didn't notice you in Holley's chat when you came in. I guess I was looking at her livestream. I thought it was cool that you dropped by and Hopefully you'd drop by again when someone announces a livestream. I know that I've heard from at least one other who'd love to see you livestream your game. That's truth!

Second, you know I'm a hundred percent in agreement with you on respecting artist copyrights. As an artist myself, I'm super careful where my original works gets posted and very particular about who gets to do what with them. If someone however puts their art on tumblr, just by doing that you've given tumblr rights for other users to reblog your work.

I am going to be strangely contrary about sim screen sharing though. Like you say EA owns copyrights for anything produced with sims so we can't really claim copyright over our own images... Even the story shots I know we've slaved over and are super proud of. We're community policed though so if someone does steal our pics, we've got the community outside of EA to back us up. There's no legal or monetary repurcussions.

I see sim pictures as no different than any Sims CC though. CC gets shared and linked to reblogged etc across all mediums, and not many seems to ask eachother if they can repost ads or even edit the original works. I don't consider sim screenshots as any different. If it's on a public site, like GoS, and gets blogged on tumblr, with full credits and links to the original, I have no problem with that. (I'll make a more public case on this because I think people speaking out against CuriousB are in the wrong IMO) That being said, I do personally try to respect what people want to do with their images, and I don't repost other pictures unless it was a very public forum like GoS or MTS. I used to before when simblr was a newer concept, but its become unnecessary now that others have tumblrs. I just don't see a problem when I see others reposting cross platform. This only pertains to sim content and NOT original content though.

[genlisae.livejournal.com]

I do not agree with the people speaking out against CuriousB at all. There was no intent to harm, claim ownership, or anything else going on there. It was very obviously a case of CB saying "I like this, I want to show it to you so you can like it too!"

My comments were direct to a specific portion of that discussion. The question was raised asking why anyone would ever object to anyone sharing a pic, especially while giving credit (Which CB very obviously did). I was simply pointing out a few reasons why. No, we can not claim any copyrights aside from the "ownership" of "I made this" nor should we. That would be like me sitting down with my tablet and painting a pic of Simtopi characters (I won't, I promise. When it comes to people I fail stick figures) and then saying "The Simtopi universe is mine because I did this". I think everyone can agree that would be insane and also completely not what CB did.

But I can see the side of those who are not comfortable with their game pics being shared. That attribution link sometimes takes a moment or two to see, especially when your first thought, however misplaced due to the medium it may be, is: Oh god. Not again.

Is this the 'right' reaction to have? I don't know. Probably not most times, but then again when several well known stories have been plagiarized, maybe it could be. Sometimes. I could go back and forth about this indefinitely and still not have a firm stance on the issue. In either case it is the reaction some will have and some will have a deep and overwhelming sense of ownership regardless. So while it may not make sense to you, or even me sometimes, it is at least a valid reaction and it never hurts to ask.

Again, I am not saying that sharing is wrong, or that no one should share, ever, without getting permission. Just providing a possible answer to the question of why some could feel the way the secret poster did.

Today I am more than a little annoyed with myself for reacting the way I did and making this post. It is sims for heaven's sake! But I did have that momentary reaction (due far more to the comments than the actual secret) and I did make this post proving that much like being wrong about livestream, I can be irrational as well. Two checks on the, yes I am human list. *eyeroll*

As for livestream, I will be stopping by when another comes up. I did enjoy seeing a different play style first hand. I don't know if I will ever be doing one of my game though, and I have had a few ask me too. I am not sure my game would make for the most ... (how to word this) ... suitable for all experience? Yeah, that will work. My sims are anatomically correct (to a scary degree because I couldn't buy into the concept of sexual reproduction while they looked like barbie) and, for general play, they are on free will at all times meaning there are many, many occasions where what is on my screen is very graphic! During a shooting for story purposes session, or when I get back to the rebuild? Maybe. There is almost no chance of someone getting an eyefull of way more than they ever wanted to see then. I don't know, I will have to see (if my computer will let me as much as anything else) and find out what it is those who have asked would like to see.

And now I have written another wall of text *facepalm*. Sorry!

[simtopi]

Believe me, I understand your point about your original art and how harmful it can actually be if it's shared past where the artist allows it. I'm so all over artist copyrights, which is also why I'm kind of a stickler for EA's rights. As shitty a company that they appear to be, they deserve the rights to their own work, just as any artist or company does. That's why I defend it. But I know we're not arguing about those details. (And no we're not arguing at all, I like discussions! Wall of text is okay! :D)

I can see why the objections to things being shared, I do see your point there. My entire thing is only about sims and that we can't have different sets of standards for custom game content and screenshots. To me, they're kind of the same thing. They also get linked around, posted on finds blogs and yeah they get plagiarized too, so personally I don't like to set standards on the level of effort and creativity between sim storytelling and content creation. Also the pic that was used in CuriousB's example was publically shared already on Garden of Shadows which arguably has much more viewers than CuriousB's tumblr, I can see why they wouldn't think there would be an issue getting more publicity. If CuriousB also wrote a note simply commenting how she felt about the work, then it can also fall under fair use.

It doesn't mean that it's polite, or correct, I'm just talking about strict technicalities now. I think it's nice to have courtesies in place. It'd be nice if everyone asked eachother if they could edit eachother's CC, or share their screens, but it's unrealistic, it won't happen and personally (as in ' my personal opinion, others may disagree') I don't think it's a big thing to fight over to the extent that some SS anons are.

However, when it comes to setting real world precedents it would be nice. A lot of simmers seem to be young and just don't understand artist copyrights (or any kind of copyright law, if I glean from the SS comments) like we do and couldn't discuss things rationally.

I don't think you need to be upset with yourself for having this reaction though. Even though I personally disagree (on the sims end), you went with your reaction based on personal experience and it's totally valid and it's good to state it. It can after all, help someone understand and possibly learn. It's not irrational at all, IMO.